I Had a Friendly Chat with Gavin Ortlund

In this episode Trent sits down with Protestant apologist Gavin Ortlund to discuss what they agree and disagree about. To support this channel: https://www.patreon.com/counseloftrent [NEW] Counsel of Trent merch: https://shop.catholic.com/apologists-alley/trent-horn-resources/ Be sure to keep up with our socials! https://www.tiktok.com/@counseloftrent https://www.twitter.com/counseloftrent https://www.instagram.com/counseloftrentpodcast 0:00 Introduction 1:17 Gavin’s background in apologetics 3:25 Why Trent focuses on more than Catholic-Protestant debates 5:11 Why Gavin entered Protestant apologetics 7:03 Comparing the best of Catholicism and Protestantism 8:42 Where Catholics and Protestants can work together 11:30 Scholarship, popular apologetics, and bad arguments 13:07 Keeping goodwill in Catholic-Protestant debate 14:11 Trent and Gavin’s biblical slavery debate 15:51 Drawing lines while defending the gospel together 17:27 Theological triage and ranking doctrines 18:18 Mere Christianity vs. the fullness of Christian belief 19:38 Is Catholicism more important than Jesus? 21:20 Why internal disagreements can get more heated 23:10 How to disagree without destroying relationships 25:03 How the internet distorts theological conflict 26:08 Reviewing scripts and keeping rebuttals charitable 28:08 Misrepresentation, falsehoods, and online controversy 29:48 “Tune out the noise and meet needs” 30:36 St. Paul, apologetics, and internet criticism 33:38 Is online drama a spiritual distraction? 33:52 Why Trent and Gavin stay online 36:03 Raising up better Christian apologists 37:27 Permissible, obligatory, and forbidden doctrines 38:48 Gavin’s core objection to Catholicism 40:11 Mary’s Assumption, Dormition, and binding the conscience 41:07 Where do Catholics and Protestants draw Christianity’s boundaries? 42:34 Hard doctrines: Catholicism, hell, and submission to Christ 45:40 Annihilationism, Kirk Cameron, and Christian disagreement 46:14 Catholic and Protestant art, films, and C. S. Lewis 48:04 Mary’s Assumption and historical evidence 49:55 Mormonism, the Trinity, and true worship 50:34 Classical theism and first-rank doctrines 52:50 Divine simplicity, fine-tuning, and apologetics 54:27 The Incarnation and the causes of the Reformation 55:18 Sola scriptura, justification, and authority 56:15 Icon veneration and doctrinal development 58:31 Sola scriptura and the limits of Christian practice 1:01:00 What does sola scriptura actually mean? 1:02:20 What evidence would justify an obligatory doctrine? 1:04:08 How do Christians determine first-rank doctrines? 1:06:35 Does disagreement refute sola scriptura? 1:07:40 Protestant disunity and Catholic ecclesial authority 1:10:16 The strongest argument against Protestantism 1:10:36 Does Catholicism solve doctrinal disagreement? 1:13:52 Trent’s “one reason” he is not Protestant 1:14:10 The New Testament canon and the “gap problem” 1:15:04 Scripture, authorship, and scholarly criticism 1:18:39 Bishops, scholarship, and historical arguments 1:20:00 Credobaptism, infant baptism, and salvation 1:24:56 Gavin on baptizing his children 1:27:03 Does baptism save? 1:29:44 Catholicism, Protestantism, and doctrinal development 1:32:13 Genesis, heliocentrism, and development in theology 1:32:56 Newman and measuring doctrinal development 1:33:40 Surrogacy, bioethics, and moral authority 1:35:50 What Protestants can learn from Catholics 1:37:26 Penance, forgiveness, and justification 1:38:35 Did the conversation make progress? 1:39:45 What would Catholic-Protestant progress look like? 1:42:35 Can non-Christians see our love? 1:43:52 Catholics and Protestants reaching the non-religious 1:45:03 Common mission and correcting caricatures 1:47:11 What Catholics can learn from evangelicals 1:47:49 Closing thoughts